Wikipedia:Archief/Wikipedia:IRC chat 6 mei 2005

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beheerpagina's

Dit is een archiefpagina Gelieve onderstaande teksten NIET te wijzigen of er commentaar op te geven. Archivering gedaan door Romaine op 2 jan 2012 5:30 (CET) i.v.m. met verwijdernominatie.

Zie ook Wikipedia:Geschiedenis

[19:45] -->| elian_ (~elian@elian.wikipedia) has joined #nl.wikimedia
[19:46] <elian_> hiho
[19:47] <GerardM> :) Hoi elian :)
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[19:52] <GerardM> Hoi Ryo, CHATTER and Angela :)
[19:53] <Angela> hello :)
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[19:55] <GerardM> For your info, some footwork has been done. We know that there are legally two formats we can choose. A "vereniging" and a "stichting". A "vereniging" has members and they choose a board. A "stichting" is an organisation that is less democratic. The choice for a "stichting" would make sense depending on the goal of the organisation.
[19:55] <Dedalus> Goodevening
[19:56] <GerardM> If the organisation has as its main purpose to represent the Foundation, a "stichtin" would make the most sense.
[19:57] <chatter> is het dan een soort van VZW?
[19:57] <GerardM> chatter what is a VZW ??
[19:57] <chatter> of is dat nog iets anders?
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[19:57] <Dedalus> een vzw=vereniging zonder winstoogmerkt
[19:58] <GerardM> The organisation will most definetly not be commercial (aiming for a profit)
[19:58] <chatter> of venootschap. wordt hier in belgie veel gebruikt voor zulke zaken.
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[19:59] <GerardM> The organisation will be for the Netherlands only as the laws are different, the taxes are different. 
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[20:00] <daniel-fpc> Hoezo 2 kanalen??
[20:00] <chatter> but who will do all the paperwork?
[20:00] <GerardM> Some Duchies .. 
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[20:00] <GerardM> And we want as little as possible of it
[20:00] <Angela> do you have any lawyers on nl willing to help with it?
[20:01] <GerardM> (paperwork) Yes, when we have trashed out what we want, the Kennisnet lawyers will advise us.
[20:01] <Angela> that's useful
[20:01] <Dedalus> And a norairs=notary public is a lawyer as well, advising us
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[20:02] <chatter> en de boekhouding?
[20:02] <GerardM> I discussed with the notary that we can send the rules in to the Tax office in order to get the proper tax status. This saves us money
[20:02] <GerardM> Bookkeeping is something that we need to do. 
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[20:03] <GerardM> The thing is, technically we can do what is proposed in "Donations, putting your money where your mouth is" on Meta
[20:03] <GerardM> This will make it less dificult as well
[20:04] <GerardM> The bank has software that makes it realtively "easy" to do bookkeeping.
[20:05] <GerardM> There are two reasons why the nl:wikiMedia should not be too close to any project. First because of the Belgian connection we cannot represent the whole of nl:projects.
[20:06] <GerardM> The second reason, there are many people who are into other language projects as well like Frisian English Limburgian ..
[20:07] <chatter> have you an idee wath the cost are for starting a foundation?
[20:07] <GerardM> So personally I favour a situation where we have a stichting and support financially when some activities by the projects need it.
[20:09] <GerardM> The cost are not that big. It depends on the complexity of what the notary has to do. It would be more then EUR 200 and less than 500.
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[20:09] <chatter> and yeary cost? 
[20:09] <GerardM> The question is, what do you Angela Ryo and elian think, does this sound good ??
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[20:10] <GerardM> Yearly cost we have to do admin. some banking cost, it would amount to that much. 
[20:11] <daniel-fpc> Basically it is yoru fee to the chamber of commerce. All other costs are the ones you make yourself.
[20:11] <Angela> GerardM: it seems ok. Have there been any objections to the idea?
[20:11] <GerardM> When we have a bank account people can pay directly into a Dutch bank account. That would help a lot getting funds.
[20:12] <GerardM> This is one forum where people can object/ ask questions.. The other is http://nl.wikimedia.org (a site in Dutch on this subject)
[20:12] <Ryo_> what would be the income source?
[20:12] <GerardM> Donations.
[20:12] <chatter> But wat for things wil the dutch foundation be supporting on money. I heard of dutch foundation spending money from french servermemory.
[20:12] <Ryo_> member fees?
[20:12] <chatter> german
[20:13] <GerardM> For the initial costs, a onetime subsidy by the WMF board
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[20:13] <chatter> so why not making one big european foundation. A tax cut isn't sure
[20:14] <GerardM> When we are a vereniging we have members, when we are a stichting we do not have members.
[20:14] <GerardM> chatter the possibility of a tax cut is a near certainty. 
[20:14] <Angela> wouldn't having members be a better option? The other chapters have done that
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[20:15] <daniel-fpc> An European foundation is legaly not possible at this time.]
[20:15] <GerardM> Kennisnet says: "Wikipedia is important for the Dutch educational system" That is what we support as an organisation
[20:15] <daniel-fpc> Second it would need involvement of an international group of people, which is not the case here.
[20:15] <daniel-fpc> I'd rather say important for the "kenniseconomie".
[20:16] <daniel-fpc> Dag Fruggo
[20:16] <GerardM> there is this sense of what makes a member, is an active editor not as important.. 
[20:16] <Fruggo> Hoi daniel-fpc (en de rest)
[20:17] <Dedalus> Angela, you do mention members. How many contributing members does the Wikimedia Foundation have?
[20:17] <muijz> Gerard could you rephrase that please?
[20:17] <muijz> I don't get it
[20:18] <GerardM> How many members for the de and fr chapters.. the en chapter ?? pl ??
[20:18] <Angela> Dedalus: none yet
[20:19] <galwaygirl> Wouldn't it be very hard to make decisions when all members have a say?
[20:19] <Ryo_> Fruggo: chapter has approx 15 to 20 members
[20:19] <Angela> I don't know how many the chapters have, but the Foundation itself never agreed on how membership should be handled
[20:19] <GerardM> A member (paying member) would be a member of the organisation .. would that negate the editors of wikiprojects ??
[20:19] <Dedalus> @Angela: that make some, like me, prefer the institutional type without members
[20:19] <Angela> GerardM: I don't understand. What does it have to do with editing?
[20:19] <elian_> de has over 100 members now
[20:20] <Angela> who is going to make decisions if there are no members? Would you just have an unaccountable board?
[20:20] <Angela> elian: wow. That's really impressive :)
[20:20] <GerardM> there was this discussion, that you could buy yourself into the organisation. This while the people contributing content are the lifeblood of what we do/what we are
[20:20] <Dedalus> @Angela, volunteer members of the Wikimedia Foundation Inc are all registered users who have ever edited in an project
[20:20] <Fruggo> Angela; I think the question is: does the (board  of the) chapter represent the editors, or the members?
[20:21] <Dedalus> @Angela: A "Stichting" has only a Board - that is accountable to itself
[20:21] <GerardM> Fruggo or does the chapter represent the Foundation ..
[20:21] <Angela> what is the advantage of having a Stichting rather than a vereniging?
[20:21] <GerardM> A stichting would by necessity be accountable to the WMF board
[20:22] <Dedalus> One advantage of Stichting over a Vereniging is not having members, and not having to worry about them
[20:22] <Angela> chapters aren't supposed to represent editors since they are not based around a language project, but around a geographical area, so there is not really a project that they can represent
[20:22] <GerardM> the advantage is that it would be plain that the organisation is NOT involved in the policies of the projects.
[20:23] <Angela> who would vote for the board if you have no members?
[20:23] <Dedalus> The board chooses it's own board members
[20:23] <Fruggo> Angela; that a chapter doesn't represent a project doesn't mean that it cant represent editors
[20:23] <GerardM> It would be plain that it is not the organisation who is responsible for activities that should be handled by the projects itself
[20:24] <GerardM> Which editors ??
[20:24] <Angela> I don't see how not having members helps that
[20:24] <GerardM> How would they represent them ??
[20:24] <Dedalus> The mission for the organisation will be to (financially) support activitities by projects
[20:25] <Fruggo> GerardM; editors resident in the Netherlands, since it would be a dutch chapter. maybe 'represent' isn't the word i mean...
[20:25] <GerardM> not only but also
[20:25] <Dedalus> You do not need members for that mission. Donations suffice
[20:25] <GerardM> Legal representation and organisational representation could be included
[20:27] <pjetter> Could maybe elian_ inform us about advantages experienced with the german foundation (against no organisation at all)?
[20:27] <GerardM> Fruggo, at the moment editors organise themselves through the mailing list IRC de kroeg.. that should continue ..
[20:27] <pjetter> Is there more than being a contract member?
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[20:28] <GerardM> pjetter what is a "contract member"
[20:28] <muijz> Angela remarked "I don't see how not having members helps that"
[20:28] <muijz> I don't see it either
[20:28] <pjetter> gerardM this is what Kennisnet needed us to be a legal entity
[20:29] <muijz> maybe Gerard can elaborate this?
[20:29] <GerardM> We also need a legal entity to have a bank account.
[20:29] <GerardM> So it is not just for contracts.
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[20:30] <pjetter> But for what do we need money Gerard?
[20:31] <Angela> membership fees would be a useful source of income
[20:31] <GerardM> Muijz, when you have a stichting, the board elects members for the board. So you do not have members
[20:31] <muijz> yes Gerard
[20:31] <muijz> and the advantage of it would be?
[20:31] * pjetter thinks very basic and compares to present situation
[20:31] <Fruggo> GerardM; that is not necessarily so; in the "statuten" you can say how the board is elected. 
[20:32] <GerardM> We have many servers, they cost money. We have all kind of other projects that we could fund if we had the money.. There is so much that we can do with MONEY
[20:32] <muijz> I mean: here we have a grassroots organisation that will be ruled by a stichting?
[20:33] <GerardM> Muijz it would make plain that there is no relation between the organisation and the projects. Obviously, the nl:board needs the trust of the WMF board so, the people will be active wikimedians of good repute
[20:33] <Fruggo> Angela, if we choose a stichting, we could also found a (more simple) vereniging: "friends of ...", that can have members and thus contribution.
[20:33] <GerardM> Muijz the organisation does NOT and will NOT rule the projects.
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[20:34] <Fruggo> The "friends of ...." vereniging would have to be complicated, a bank account and the goal "give money to the stichting" would be enough
[20:34] <muijz> well yes Gerard, but the organisation has the money
[20:34] <GerardM> Yes Fruggo. That would be cool as it means that we can include our Belgian friends ..
[20:34] <Dedalus> @Fruggo : those contributors could also donate to the stichting
[20:34] <pjetter> To Elian_ what kind of projects do you fund in Germany?
[20:34] <muijz> what is the advantage of not having a relation between the organisation and the projects?
[20:35] <Fruggo> GerardM / Dedalus ; that would solve some issues!
[20:35] <GerardM> Muijz have you read "Donations: putting your money where your mouth is"
[20:35] <muijz> no
[20:35] <GerardM> Read it and you would know why it is a non issue
[20:35] <Fruggo> Muijz; i thing it is difficult to define those projects
[20:35] <Fruggo> thing = think
[20:36] <Angela> muijz: it's at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Donations:Putting_your_money_where_your_mouth_is
[20:36] <muijz> no, I think if there *is* an advantage you can explain it in a sentence or two
[20:36] <muijz> so?
[20:36] <galwaygirl> you could describe the goal of the stichting in the "statuten" and check if requests from projects for financial help meet that goal, and you wouldn't have to vote over it
[20:36] <galwaygirl> zo you could make fast decisions
[20:37] <galwaygirl> so
[20:37] <Fruggo> Muijz; I don't believe there is an advantage of seperating the two; it only would complicate matters.
[20:37] <muijz> yes, but who will write those statuten?
[20:37] <Fruggo> An advisory board?
[20:37] <muijz> fruggo: I don't see it either
[20:37] <elian__> pjetter: most money goes and should go into hardware
[20:37] <muijz> I think a grassrootsorganisation should choose for a vereniging
[20:37] <elian__> muijz: agree
[20:37] <galwaygirl> it would be very slow
[20:38] <elian__> galwaygirl: why?
[20:38] <pjetter> elian__ Do you have hardware in Germany then?
[20:38] <Dedalus> we are not organising the grass roots organisation
[20:38] <galwaygirl> I am active in a vereniging now, and it takes forever to make decisions
[20:38] <elian__> pjetter: atm we are struggling to find ways to transfer the money to the foundation
[20:38] <Dedalus> we are setting up a financial fund, legally embedded
[20:38] <galwaygirl> I was a penningmeester
[20:38] <elian__> galwaygirl: depends on the structure
[20:38] <GerardM> A grassroots organisation CAN have a vereniging but it will NOT represent the projects like it can it Germany or France
[20:38] <Fruggo> galwaygirl: agree
[20:38] <galwaygirl> Elian: how?
[20:39] <elian__> in the german verein we have a board of ten people who do the work
[20:39] <GerardM> With the "stichting" setup that will be easy.
[20:39] <Ryo_> GerardM: we DO NOT represent the projects
[20:39] <Ryo_> merely WMF
[20:39] <muijz> yes elian, we could do the same here
[20:39] <GerardM> That is EXACTLY what the stichting will do.
[20:39] <muijz> gerard will you stop yelling
[20:40] <Dedalus> Is that the difference between French and German chapter?
[20:40] <elian__> no
[20:40] <Dedalus> Is there a diff?
[20:40] <elian__> the difference is that france is official daughter organization of the foundation
[20:40] <elian__> while for legal reasons, the german verein has to be independent
[20:41] <elian__> although we regard it as local chapter, too, this status is informal
[20:41] * daniel-fpc is even weg
[20:41] <Dedalus> To become tax exempt in the Netherlands the board will have to be idependent
[20:42] <elian__> Dedalus: the board of what?
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[20:42] <Dedalus> of the stichting
[20:42] <pjetter> elian__ the Verein acquires money for the Foundation right, that is the main goal. Why then have a Verein and not let people pay directly to the foundation. Are German people more willing to pay to the Verein as the foundation?
[20:42] <GerardM> Both a vereniging and a stichting needs to be independent. It means that the board has to consist of Dutch people.
[20:42] <elian__> tax exemption is one of the most important aspects in founding a local chapter
[20:43] <pjetter> Do you really think that makes a difference?
[20:43] <elian__> if you donate money from germany to the foundation directly, you get no tax exemption
[20:43] <elian__> if you donate to the german verein, you get
[20:43] <GerardM> In four years it will be possible to have a European organisation. just not yet
[20:43] <Dedalus> We can get such status in the Netherlands as well
[20:43] <GerardM> With national tax exemptions
[20:44] <galwaygirl> What about BTW (Value Added Tax), isn't it so that a stichting doesn't have to pay it? A vereniging does.
[20:44] <Dedalus> Both have if turnover is bigger than 100 keuro
[20:44] <GerardM> It depends, not on donations. You do if you send bills etc. 
[20:45] <elian__> the question is: for what is it easier to get tax exemption and non-profit status? for a stichting or a vereniging
[20:45] <galwaygirl> GerardM: I mean when buying things
[20:45] <galwaygirl> like servers
[20:45] <Dedalus> You even have to pay profit tax (vennootschapsbelasting) for corporations
[20:45] <Dedalus> And you have to pay VAT
[20:46] <GerardM> Tax exemption is as easy for one as for the other
[20:46] <Fruggo> galwaygirl; you always have to pay VAT i believe, if you have enough "omzet" you can get it back
[20:46] <muijz> both a vereniging and a stichting can apply for a btw-nummer
[20:47] <muijz> there is no difference
[20:47] <Dedalus> We do not want to do a VAT administration
[20:47] <Fruggo> dedalus: agree
[20:47] <GerardM> We do if we make money that way .. 
[20:47] <muijz> dedalus: you don't have to
[20:47] <muijz> only if you are providing services
[20:47] <Fruggo> not unless it is very profitable
[20:48] <GerardM> It should be easy not to make money.
[20:49] <Fruggo> is it?
[20:49] <GerardM> If we make money we can also have costs.
[20:50] <Dedalus> Tax issues won't the decide the choice stichting or vereniging
[20:50] <GerardM> One negates the other.
[20:50] <elian__> make a list with pro and contras?
[20:50] <GerardM> Has been done on the wiki..
[20:51] <Fruggo> GerardM; would money that we donate to te Foundation be 'costs',  or is that profit?
[20:51] <elian__> GerardM: and the result?
[20:51] <GerardM> neither. We will receive it and we funnel it to the WMF's goals. They may include things we want to achieve in the Netherlands.
[20:52] <GerardM> The result is inconclusive as far as I can tell.
[20:52] <pjetter> All of you: who does think that a tax exemption helps funding more money than without stichting/vereniging
[20:53] <GerardM> We cannot have a bankaccount. We need an organisation
[20:53] <elian__> pjetter: I don't understand the question
[20:53] <Fruggo> pjetter; I do
[20:53] <Dedalus> pjetter: neither do I
[20:53] <GerardM> Without a bankaccount it is hard to get people to donate in the Netherlands.
[20:53] <Fruggo> not just because the tax exemption, but because of the dutch bank account
[20:54] <pjetter> Still trying to figure out advantages compared to the labour investment of having a vereniging/stichting
[20:54] <Fruggo> GerardM; exactly, I tried to donate via paypal (or something) once,  couldn't make it work
[20:54] <Fruggo> :(
[20:54] <Fruggo> pjetter: It shouldn't have to be much trouble
[20:54] <elian__> it's not only labour investment...it's also fun
[20:55] * pjetter is looking for a Kosten/baten analyse
[20:55] <GerardM> With a vereninging or a stichting we get a reduction in banking charges from both the ABN and the RABO bank to the tune of +/- 200  EUR
[20:55] <Fruggo> I've got to go, good luck discussing this further!
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[20:56] <Dedalus> elian__: could you elaborate on that?
[20:56] <GerardM> Angela, any clue when we have our next funding drive ??
[20:57] <pjetter> (Don't understand me wrong I am not against it, just looking for synergy and reasons to start this all)
[20:57] <elian__> Dedalus: all the promotion projects we have realized had been lots of fun
[20:57] <Angela> GerardM: some time before the end of June hopefully
[20:57] <GerardM> Things like going to the Open Holland ??
[20:57] <Angela> the chapter should be about increasing a sense of community as well, not just about tax cuts
[20:58] <elian__> Angela: exactly
[20:58] <muijz> I agree
[20:58] <Dedalus> How much community sense has Wikimedia Foundation Inc. without any members?
[20:59] <GerardM> The problem with that is that some wikiPedians consider other projects as not part of the whole. 
[20:59] <GerardM> They negate that Wiktionary for instance is relevant. 
[20:59] <elian__> ehmm...maybe one important thing
[21:00] =-= Dedalus is now known as on-
[21:00] <elian__> the french had a long debate if it should be wikimedia francophone or wikimedia france
[21:00] <elian__> and we discussed this in the german verein, too
[21:00] =-= on- is now known as on-nl
[21:00] =-= on-nl is now known as on-nl-wikimedia
[21:00] <GerardM> A sense of community should be about a WikiMedian community otherwise it would not make sense to go for the community connection
[21:00] <elian__> of course the local chapter should fund and promote _all_ projects
[21:01] <Angela> I agree
[21:01] <elian__> that's something which should be made clear from the beginning (in the statutes or whatever)
[21:02] =-= on-nl-wikimedia is now known as Dedalus
[21:02] <GerardM> Exactly. With a stichting that would in the statutes anyway.
[21:03] <elian__> GerardM: why only with a stichting?
[21:03] <GerardM> The idea of a stichting is, the community is represented in the WMF, the nl:organisation would represent the WMF. So it would be an indirect control
[21:03] <pjetter> But what kind of projects are we talking about?
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[21:03] <Ryo_> yeha, big debate on francophone vs france
[21:03] <GerardM> Because a stichting would exist by sufferance of the WMF
[21:03] <Ryo_> there was a vote
[21:04] <Ryo_> and it was decided to be WM France
[21:04] <elian__> pjetter: all ;-)
[21:04] <Ryo_> some people were unhappy, but most were happy, i think
[21:04] <pjetter> Specific what project would need money for what (just a clue :-) )
[21:04] <Dedalus> Phrase it like: "support activities of the Wikimedia communities .."
[21:04] <GerardM> It should not be an issue in the nl: organisation. We do have people active in so many projects/languages
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[21:05] <GerardM> So a vereniging should be a WikiMedia vereniging. Who would be a member and why ??
[21:06] <Dedalus> @ Ryo_ isn't that a change from the original statutes?
[21:06] <muijz> gerardM: anyone interested in wikimedia
[21:06] <Ryo_> Dedalus: no, since the name was chosen before the status were written
[21:06] <Dedalus> Will all registered users be automatically member of the vereniging?
[21:06] <Ryo_> s/written/adopted
[21:07] <GerardM> (one argument against a vereniging is the need for an annual "vergadering" we are so much an internet organisation would that work)
[21:07] <elian__> but the netherlands are so small ;-)
[21:07] <GerardM> Registered in what project ??
[21:07] =-= elian__ is now known as elian
[21:08] <chatter> wikimedia-projects?
[21:08] <GerardM> I would love to have Kim Bruning as a member.. He is on the en:wikipedia
[21:08] -->| jwales (~jwales@Jimbo-Wales.wikipedia) has joined #nl.wikimedia
[21:08] <GerardM> Hoi Jimbo :)
[21:08] <jwales> So sorry I am late.
[21:08] <Angela> hi jwales
[21:09] <Ryo_> 'lo jwales 
[21:09] <GerardM> We were discussing if we have members, how would you qualify to be a member to the Dutch chapter.
[21:09] <jwales> hi Ang, ryo!
[21:09] <elian> by payment of your membership fees?
[21:10] <Dedalus> Hi Jim
[21:10] <jwales> hi dedalus... :-)
[21:10] <jwales> Ok, what are the advantages or disadvantages to a structure with or without members?
[21:10] <GerardM> One way would be relevant to the number of edits another paying your membership fee.
[21:10] <jwales> What do the German and French do?
[21:10] <jwales> I think both require payment of dues
[21:10] <jwales> and no consideration of number of edits
[21:11] <GerardM> one big disadvantage of members is that you have to have a physical meeting.. we are an internet community
[21:11] <Dedalus> What about all those editors that don't pay dues?
[21:12] <GerardM> With a member organisation members would expect that you "do" things for their projects and that is in my opinion a bad idea.
[21:12] <Ryo_> Fr requires fees, yes
[21:12] <Ryo_> no relation to projects
[21:12] <Angela> Dedalus: chapters are not about representing the editors, so it wouldn't matter if they didn't want to be members
[21:13] <Dedalus> the editors do constitute the community, don't they?
[21:13] <GerardM> They would not. They would constitute the organisation.
[21:14] <GerardM> They would in effect be a community in their own right.
[21:16] <Dedalus> so there would be a community of members and a community of editors?
[21:16] <Ryo_> yes, unrelated
[21:16] <elian> and one should take care that those are not too different
[21:17] <elian> essentially, the verein recruits its members of very dedicated editors
[21:17] <Dedalus> So the bonus for very dedicated editors is paying dues !
[21:17] <GerardM> But I would not be suprised if th number of en:wikipedians in the Netherlands is of a similar size as the nl:wikipedians. So the overlap would be destintly different
[21:18] <elian> Dedalus: they wanted ;-)
[21:19] <elian> we have also a sort of promoting membership, with no voting rights. for people and companies who just want to donate money
[21:19] <pjetter> Still struggling with supporting activities for of the Wikimedia communities:  besides hardware what do you have in mind?
[21:20] <elian> I think it's important to have such sort of regular income
[21:20] <elian> instead of relying on one-time donations
[21:20] <Angela> pjetter: perhaps also things like dealing with publishers in the netherlands who want to produce dvd versions etc
[21:20] <Dedalus> What is the membership fee?
[21:21] <GerardM> Funding software developmetn, funding the aquisition of data to have under the GNU-FDL.. All kind of things. We have one programmer on the payroll
[21:21] <elian> 24 euro/12 reduced, promoting membership as much as you want
[21:21] <Dedalus> With 100 members that is 2400 euro annually
[21:21] <Dedalus> That is petty cash
[21:21] <jwales> One thing I think is that it can be nice if people who are not editors but who support our mission can be members.
[21:22] <pjetter> OK i sort of get it, for instance if we want to have good Quality foto's under GFDL we could buy it, something like that?
[21:22] <jwales> Like, I'm a member of some charitable organizations, but I don't do anything, I just send in my check each year.
[21:22] <GerardM> The funny thing is you cannot be a WMF member at the present time.. 
[21:22] <jwales> pjetter: that's possible
[21:22] <elian> jwales: and get a nice report about the organization each year
[21:22] <Dedalus> A stichting would have people who donate money ...
[21:22] <GerardM> you can be a member of a chapter..
[21:23] <jwales> pjetter: another possibility is that the community can get speakers for conferences, things like that
[21:23] <jwales> Well, we're just waiting for the software right, the legal infrastructure and decisions have been made for memberships.
[21:23] <jwales> of the wikimedia foundation I mean
[21:24] <Dedalus> legally I am a (volunteer) member of WMF right now ...
[21:24] <jwales> *nod*
[21:24] <elian> although some people deny this
[21:24] <jwales> deny what?
[21:25] <elian> the current volunteer membership
[21:25] <Dedalus> @ elian : i probably should have send my personal information to the board to be _officially_ member
[21:26] <Angela> it should possibly be opt in rather than opt out
[21:27] <GerardM> I get the feel that the majority is in favour of a vereniging..
[21:27] <GerardM> With a next funding drive in June, it would make sense to get something going.
[21:27] -->| Quistnix (~anton@kf-nawij-tg04-0163.dial.kabelfoon.nl) has joined #nl.wikimedia
[21:28] <Quistnix> hi
[21:28] <GerardM> hoi Quistnix
[21:28] <Dedalus> Should local chapters be more like daugther organizations or more like independent organizations?
[21:30] <Dedalus> members of local chapters - would they become automatically members of WMF? - How is this in France or Germany?
[21:30] <jwales> Dedalus that's an interesting question but I think it is too abstract to really answer
[21:30] <Angela> I don't think they have to be either. It depends on what is legally easiest
[21:30] <jwales> I meant your first question
[21:31] <Angela> for being members of the foundation, it might depend whether the chapter were, or even could, transfer any of the fees to the foundation
[21:31] <Quistnix> How would the money flow *to* the WMF be organized? How would the money flow *from* the WMF be organized?
[21:32] <Quistnix> in other words: how would local projects be financed?
[21:34] <GerardM> Typically they finance themselves. We can have a one time grant/loan to set things up.
[21:35] <Quistnix> This is not what I meant. I would like to have some form of guarantee that we can set up projects (approved by the WMF firs, of course), and not run the risk of not getting any money to keep them going.
[21:35] <Angela> people wanting to do something local can still ask the foundation for money whether the chapter exists or not though. The existence of that doesn't mean we'd suddenly stop funding anything in nl
[21:36] <jwales> Absolutely
[21:36] <jwales> There are only two reasons (broadly speaking) to have a local organization...
[21:36] <jwales> 1. Fun for the people in the country, it's nice to be a part of something, to organize local meetings, local things
[21:36] <jwales> 2. A legal interface with organizations in that country
[21:37] <jwales> Maybe there are other reasons, but those are the main ones I think.
[21:37] <Quistnix> local meetings are fun, but how about technical projects?
[21:37] <Quistnix> Kennisnet has plans, I think.
[21:37] <jwales> Quistnix, what do you mean exactly?
[21:37] <jwales> Oh, right, well that's what I mean by #2
[21:38] <jwales> Kennisnet has suggested it is easier for them to deal (legally) with funding a dutch organization
[21:38] <jwales> What other kinds of projects did you mean?
[21:39] <Quistnix> One thing would be a local (slave) server to reduce the load on your end.
[21:39] <walterBE> Jimbo, do you have any figures how much money came into the Belgian bank account? It would shed some light on the amount of money we can expect in the Netherlands.
[21:41] <GerardM> Quistnix, local servers are being discussed with both Kennisnet and Belnet. I think we will be extroadinarly well connected in the Benelux :)
[21:42] <jwales> walter, good time to ask me!
[21:42] <jwales> Because I have here a statement from them
[21:42] <jwales> written in French :-(
[21:42] <Quistnix> French, or wa: ? ;)
[21:42] <GerardM> numbers do translate well :)
[21:43] <walterBE> It is Brussels :-(
[21:43] <jwales> SOLDE AU 08-04-2005 18:40 EUR +23,79
[21:43] <walterBE> Hmmm :-((
[21:43] <jwales> To me it looks like there was 30.00 EUR there
[21:43] <jwales> and then a fee of 1,09 and a fee of 5,12
[21:43] <walterBE> Good for some post stamps
[21:44] <walterBE> that is all
[21:44] <Dedalus> walterBE: did yo donate thirty euro?
[21:44] <walterBE> no
[21:44] <walterBE> it donate by bying domains
[21:44] <walterBE> for wikimedia
[21:45] <jwales> :-))
[21:45] <jwales> This is usually worth a lot more than the money
[21:45] <walterBE> + one year for wikiwoordenboek.org an dfor wikimedia.be
[21:45] <jwales> because it protected us in a time when we didn't know what to do.
[21:47] <GerardM> The one thing I hate is NOT to have WalterBE in our organisation. To me he is a great guy, having a stichting that does the representative stuff allows for plenty of room for a seperate vereniging that is inclusive of our Belgian friend.
[21:48] <daniel-fpc> my thoughts exactly
[21:48] <jwales> Can you explain which sort of organization would exclude him?
[21:48] <daniel-fpc> But afaik the rules do not rule it out, as long as the organisation remains clearly Dutch.
[21:48] <jwales> I think I can join the French and German organizations no matter where I am if I pay the fee
[21:48] <GerardM> A Dutch only organisation would.
[21:48] <elian> we have chinese members
[21:49] <daniel-fpc> In nationality. No problem.
[21:49] <jwales> (In fact I think both made me an honorary member already.  The Germans did for sure, I can't remember about the French.)
[21:49] <daniel-fpc> The problem is place of residence.
[21:49] <elian> the organization can be based in the netherlands, but accept members from everywhere
[21:49] <daniel-fpc> Yes, but it must be very clearly a Dutch organisation.
[21:49] <daniel-fpc> If 50% lives outside for example, there is a problem with the "fiscus".
[21:50] <Ryo_> jwales: indeed
[21:50] <GerardM> But a member is a person who pays his membership dues.. Would Walter be both a be and a nl member and have to pay twice :(
[21:50] <jwales> daniel: yes but this should not be a problem, it seems unlikely
[21:50] <Ryo_> jwales: and *WMF* is a member of WM France, not you specifically :)
[21:50] * Quistnix thinks on the long term a european "stichting" or "vereniging" would be accepted in nl
[21:50] <jwales> Ryo: then I better send in my dues
[21:50] <jwales> ;-)
[21:51] <Ryo_> haha
[21:51] <GerardM> Quistnix I have looked into an European organisation. It is not feasible at this moment in time. Villy said maybe in 10 years
[21:51] <Angela> what is unfeasible about it?#
[21:52] <Quistnix> that "long term" ;)
[21:52] <daniel-fpc> Anyway, as long as the "fiscus" views you as a Dutch organisation, there should be no problem getting Belgians inside.
[21:52] <GerardM> We cannot get a bankaccount. If we can it cost 200% more AND we do not get the discount of EUR 200,-
[21:53] <daniel-fpc> Europian organisations simply do not exist in the law at the moment.
[21:54] <daniel-fpc> There is no point in speculating that they might be in the future.
[21:54] <Quistnix> I think they do exist in Belgium
[21:54] <daniel-fpc> What is "European" if it is limited to one country?
[21:54] <GerardM> Actually we can get tax exemption at the moment. It is the banks that are the problem.
[21:55] <GerardM> Tax exemption for an International organisation.
[21:56] <Ryo_> GerardM: from what i understood of the whole discussion, stichting sounds better because easier to make decisions / no members, and fiscally & such speaking it's the same as vereniging
[21:56] <Dedalus> Ryo_: Hear, hear
[21:56] <Quistnix> *if* the community agrees
[21:57] <GerardM> all true and it does not get in the way of having a seperate grass roots organisation that does not need to be difficult about tax relief and what not.
[21:57] <Ryo_> ok, but for taxes & such, it's the same?
[21:57] <jwales> hmm, I generally think a member organization is better
[21:57] <jwales> Who controls the stichting?  how are the leaders selected?
[21:57] <Ryo_> i'd say the same thing, but maybe we don't know all the reasons behind the reasoning :)
[21:58] <Quistnix> in a stichting, only a few people can make decisions.
[21:58] <jwales> Ryo: *nod* these things are complex
[21:58] <Quistnix> A vereniging requires at least one annual meeting.
[21:58] <Quistnix> members can vote there.
[21:58] <Ryo_> that's what we do here
[21:59] <Quistnix> In a stichting, it is not required.
[21:59] <Ryo_> ok, but is that the only argument?
[21:59] <Dedalus> In a stichting there might be statutory provisions on boardselection procedures, for example, with some community involvement
[22:00] <Quistnix> The "power" in a vereniging is in the hands of the members, in a stichting it is in the hands of the "bestuur"
[22:00] <GerardM> Elian, practical question .. could we have a wikimedia NL mailinglist. It would be good for either organisation. It would allow us to split the mail up ..
[22:00] <muijz> dedalus: no that is not true
[22:00] <muijz> it is prohibited
[22:00] <muijz> that is where db./nl went wrong
[22:01] <elian> GerardM: yep, I can create one
[22:01] <Ryo_> Dedalus: yeah, but apart that? :)
[22:01] <GerardM> Thanks :)
[22:02] <GerardM> The Dutch board members would need aproval from the WMF board. The nl:wikimedia can only call itself that way as long as they are allowed to use the trademark
[22:03] <GerardM> So if the nl.wikimedia *stichting* goes on a tangent, it is easy to pull its teeth.
[22:03] <GerardM> Same is true for a vereniging. It is just to show that there is little risc involved of getting the wrong people on the board.
[22:04] <GerardM> either way
[22:05] <Quistnix> the major difference between a vereniging and a stichting is in decision making: in a vereniging the members are doing that, in a stichting just the board.
[22:05] <jwales> Ik moet nu eten. (I'll be back later...)
[22:05] =-= jwales is now known as jwales|away
[22:05] <GerardM> eet smakelijk :) jwales :)
[22:05] <Ryo_> Quistnix: yes, but are there any other arguments for stichting rather than vereniging?
[22:06] <GerardM> In a vereniniging it is also the board who decides. there is the yearly meeting where they have to defend their activities ..
[22:07] <Quistnix> GerardM: Correct.
[22:07] <Quistnix> The power in a vereniging is always in the hands of the members, either direct or indirect.
[22:08] <Quistnix> In a stichting it is in the hands of the board, but can be restricted by the "statuten".
[22:09] <Ryo_> ok
[22:09] <GerardM> If the nl.wikimedia community is particular for organising lectures / meetings present themselves on computer shows like HollandOpen it would be cool to have a community for that. However, I do not care for these people paying membership fees. I would be happy to have people do this.
[22:09] <Ryo_> but are there legal reasons? fiscal reasons? journalistic reasons?
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[22:09] <muijz> in a stichting 'statuten' are of little value, because nobody is there to evaluate the actions of the board
[22:10] <Quistnix> Ryo_: not that I am aware of.
[22:10] <Quistnix> Stichting and vereniging are the same in those aspects, as far as I know.
[22:11] <muijz> in a stichting boardmembers are choosen by cooptation
[22:11] <Quistnix> muijz: in practice, you're right.
[22:11] <muijz> once a member, they can more or less do want they want
[22:11] <Quistnix> hmmm...not entirely.
[22:11] <GerardM> Muijz I just explained why this is not such a big issue
[22:12] <Quistnix> For some people it is.
[22:12] <muijz> Gerard: I guess you explained why *you* don't think it is a big issue
[22:13] <GerardM> In practice if the nl:board does things contrary to the aims of the WMF, it is easy for the WMF to withdraw support and as a consequence it is not possible to remain.
[22:13] <muijz> no, they still would have the money
[22:13] <muijz> they could for instance start a pedia of their own with hit
[22:13] <muijz> hit = it
[22:14] <muijz> or donate the money to Microsoft
[22:14] <Quistnix> If WMF is a succes, Microsoft wil try to "assimilate" us anyway :)
[22:14] <GerardM> Have you read the article I pointed you towards ??
[22:15] <GerardM> If something like that is done criminal charges are in order.
[22:15] <muijz> no, I asked you to sum up the advantages of a stichting in one or two sentences, and apparently you couldn't
[22:16] <Quistnix> GerardM: But that would involve international laws...by the time they agree, it will be the 23rd century
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[22:16] <daniel-fpc> ~~/w
[22:17] <daniel-fpc> Je kunt zoiets afvangen met de statuten. Als de stichting tegen de statuten opereert kan daar een rechtszaak op nationaal recht over gevoerd worden.
[22:17] <GerardM> Anyway. Can we conclude this meeting.. It has been going on for a *long* time ..
[22:17] <muijz> by who daniiel?
[22:18] <daniel-fpc> Iedereen die partij is.
[22:18] <GerardM> I have received some pings to suggest this
[22:18] <Dedalus> I would like to thank elian and Ryo_  for their invaluable insights from Germany and France
[22:18] <Ryo_> GerardM: imo, you should do a vereniging, as it'll enable people to be more or less involved, depending on their mood
[22:18] <muijz> bij een stichting is nu juist niemand partij
[22:18] <Angela> is there another meeting planned for this in future?
[22:19] <GerardM> I will post this chat on nl.wikimedia.org
[22:19] <daniel-fpc> muijz: een donateur is bijv. partij
[22:19] <daniel-fpc> die geeft geld met een bepaald doel.
[22:19] <daniel-fpc> als daar misbruik van gemaakt wordt kan die aktie ondernemen.
[22:19] <GerardM> Angela I will keep you posted as always :)
[22:19] <Angela> thanks :)
[22:19] <muijz> in thehorie wel, in de praktijk helaas zeer beperkt
[22:19] <GerardM> And Ryo and elian obviously :)
[22:20] <Quistnix> daniel-fpc: als het bestuur een eigen pedia opzet, hebben donateurs niets te zeggen.
[22:20] <daniel-fpc> dat is zo
[22:20] <Quistnix> Het doel blijft in dat geval ongewijzigd
[22:20] <muijz> exact
[22:20] <daniel-fpc> tenzij je dat in de statuten afvangt :)
[22:21] <Dedalus> GerardM: thanks for leading
[22:21] <muijz> dan kom je de belastingdienst tegen
[22:21] <muijz> daniel
[22:21] =-= Dedalus is now known as Dedalus-weg
[22:21] <daniel-fpc> hoezo?
[22:21] <muijz> omdat je het doel niet te zeer mag inperken toch?
[22:21] <Ryo_> no trouble, i didn't participate much but i hope i wasn't too evil :)
[22:22] <daniel-fpc> het moet een voor het algemeen nut dienende stichting zijn.
[22:22] <GerardM> Mujz, when the Dutch organisation does things illegaly it will find that the WMF can and will act.
[22:22] <muijz> precies
[22:22] <daniel-fpc> dus zorg dat algemeen nut niet in gevaar komt
[22:22] <muijz> daniel: dat staat dus op gespannen voet met elkaar
[22:22] <daniel-fpc> zolang je dat in orde houdt, krijg je met de fiscus geen problemen.
[22:22] <daniel-fpc> waarom?
[22:23] <muijz> je wilt het toch dichttimmerenn?
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[22:23] <daniel-fpc> wat de stichting aan foute dingen kan doen.
[22:23] <muijz> Gerard: pure speculation there
[22:23] <daniel-fpc> het bevorderen van de Wiki* projecten perk je niet in natuurlijk.
[22:24] <muijz> nee
[22:24] <muijz> en dan?
[22:24] <muijz> we hebben in leeuwarden oid
[22:24] <muijz> die kloon-wiki van ons
[22:24] <muijz> dan gaat een kwaadwillend ebstuur daar toch mee verder?
[22:24] <muijz> timmer dat maar eens dicht
[22:24] <daniel-fpc> En als de Wikiprojecten algemeen belang zijn, wat is dan de conclusie volgens de predikatenlogica waar jij zo goed in bent?
[22:25] <muijz> als we gaan sneren, dan stop ik de discussie
[22:25] <Angela> bye all
[22:25] <Quistnix> bye
[22:25] <muijz> bye angela
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[23:11] <daniel-fpc> ~/join #nl.wikipedia
[23:11] * daniel-fpc gaat naar bed
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[23:11] <elian> good night :-)
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